看板 HatePolitics
作者 puec2 ( .__________.)
標題 [討論] 經濟學人否定學生(民進黨)訴求
時間 Fri Mar 28 11:35:08 2014




http://tinyurl.com/l9dy6ph
Banyan: On the antlers of a dilemma | The Economist
[圖]
THE fresh-faced good looks have been lined and drawn by the cares of office. His immaculate English is forsaken for the dignity of immaculate Mandarin. Patient... ...

 

On the antlers of a dilemma


    ...Students occupying parliament have resorted to undemocratic
    means, and many of the arguments they and the DPP make about the
    trade agreement are specious....

    ...學生佔領議會是反民主的,而且學生和民進黨關於貿易協議的訴求
    都是刻意誤導...


其他部分大概就是在描述大腸花的形成背景。主要是認為馬的親中政策讓
某些人產生疑慮。才會在台灣產生迴響。至於對帶頭人的評價,人家已經
講得很清楚囉。(攤手


整篇裡面除了這段都沒有價值判斷,負面意見也是引用DPP的發言。這些人
真的可以洗洗睡了。
===================

全文


    THE fresh-faced good looks have been lined and drawn by the cares
    of office. His immaculate English is forsaken for the dignity of
    immaculate Mandarin. Patient replies to questions come wearily, as
     if said many times before. Yet, six years into his presidency, Ma
     Ying-jeou’s hair remains as lush and jet-black as any Chinese
    Politburo member’s. And, speaking in the presidential palace in
    Taipei, he remains as unwilling as any leader in Beijing to admit
    to any fundamental flaws in strategy.

    Perhaps Mr Ma draws inspiration from his portrait of Sun Yat-sen,
    founder of his ruling party, the Kuomintang (KMT), and, in 1912,
    of the Republic of China to which Taiwan’s government still owes
    its name. Sun is revered as a nationalist hero not just by the KMT
     but, across the Taiwan Strait, by the Chinese Communist Party
    too. Mr Ma may also hope to be feted on both sides of the strait—
    in his case as a leader responsible for a historic rapprochement.
    For now, however, reconciliation between Taiwan and China remains
    distant. And Mr Ma, once the KMT’s most popular politician, is
    taunted by opponents as the “9% president”, a reference to his
    approval ratings in opinion polls last autumn.

    Economic integration
    Improving relations with China has been the central theme of his
    administration, after the tensions of eight years of rule by the
    Democratic Progressive Party (DPP), which leans towards declaring
    formal independence from the mainland. Mr Ma can boast of 21
    agreements signed with China. He reels off the numbers of two
    fast-integrating economies: a tenfold increase in six years in
    mainland tourists to Taiwan, to 2.85m in 2013; cross-strait
    flights from none at all to 118 every day; two-way trade,
    including with Hong Kong, up to $160 billion a year.

    China’s strategy to reabsorb Taiwan is plain. As the island’s
    economy becomes more intertwined with that of the vast mainland,
    China thinks, resistance to unification will wane. Then Taiwan
    becomes an “autonomous” part of China—like Hong Kong, though
    allowed its own army. Taiwan will return to the motherland without
     resort to the missiles and increasingly powerful armed forces
    ranged against it. But as Mr Ma sees it, cross-strait “
    rapprochement” is a first line of defence against Chinese
    aggression, since “a unilateral move by the mainland to change
    the status quo by non-peaceful means would come at a dear price”.
     Politics in Taiwan is framed as a debate about independence or
    unification but is really about preserving the status quo.

    The next step in rapprochement with China would be a meeting
    between political leaders. In February in Nanjing, once the
    capital of a KMT government of all China, ministers from China and
     Taiwan held their first formal meeting since 1949. Mr Ma hoped to
     meet China’s president, Xi Jinping, in Beijing this November, at
     the Asia-Pacific Economic Co-operation (APEC) summit. To
    accommodate Hong Kong and Taiwan, APEC’s members are not “
    countries” but “economies”. So Mr Xi and Mr Ma could meet as “
    economic leaders”, sidestepping the tricky protocol that usually
    dogs relations, with China viewing Taiwan as a mere province. The
    Chinese demurred. But Mr Ma thinks a meeting somewhere is “not
    outside the realm of possibility”.

    This backdrop explains why a protest movement against a
    services-trade agreement with the mainland is more than a little
    local difficulty for Mr Ma. Students occupying parliament have
    resorted to undemocratic means, and many of the arguments they and
     the DPP make about the trade agreement are specious. But they
    have tapped a vein of popular mistrust of Mr Ma and of economic
    integration with the mainland. A split persists between native
    Taiwanese, on the island for generations, and mainlanders, like Mr
     Ma, whose families came over as the KMT lost the civil war in the
     1940s. Protesters portray Mr Ma as either a mainland stooge or as
     clueless and out of touch. In the occupied parliament, student
    caricatures give him antlers, a reference to a slip he once made
    when he appeared to suggest that the deer-antlers used in Chinese
    medicine were in fact hair from the animal’s ears.

    Mr Ma says public opinion supports a “Ma-Xi” summit. Joseph Wu
    of the DPP, however, claims such a meeting would actually damage
    the KMT in the next presidential election, due in 2016; rather, he
     says, Mr Ma is trying to leave a personal legacy. The DPP’s lead
     in the polls alarms not just the Chinese government but also
    America, which could do without another flare-up in a dangerous
    region. The stronger China grows, the more Taiwan’s security
    depends on commitments from America. It switched diplomatic
    recognition to Beijing in 1979, but Congress then passed a law
    obliging it to help Taiwan defend itself.

    All political lives end…

    Mr Ma says relations with America are better than they have ever
    been at least since 1979 and perhaps before. Others are doubtful.
    In all the talk of America’s “pivot” to Asia, its promises to
    Taiwan are rarely mentioned. Many in Taiwan paid attention when
    John Mearsheimer, an American academic, suggested in the National
    Interest, a policy journal, that there is “a reasonable chance
    American policymakers will eventually conclude that it makes good
    strategic sense to abandon Taiwan and to allow China to coerce it
    into accepting unification.” For some, abandonment is a fact of
    life and unification a matter of time. “No one is on our side
    strategically, diplomatically, politically; we have to count on
    China’s goodwill,” an academic in Taipei argues.

    Mr Ma has tried to steer what seems a sensible middle course
    between such defeatism and the adventurism of those in the DPP who
     would like to confront and challenge China. But he sounds weary
    with the effort, and Taiwan’s people seem weary of him. Their
    pragmatism and the DPP’s internecine strife may yet see them
    elect another KMT president in 2016. But if Mr Ma hoped to leave
    office with cross-strait relations stabilised, and with his own
    role as an historic peacemaker recognised on both sides and around
     the world, he seems likely to be disappointed.


--
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※ 文章網址: http://www.ptt.cc/bbs/HatePolitics/M.1395977711.A.D7F.html
※ 編輯: puec2           來自: 211.76.175.170       (03/28 11:36)
j3307002:吱:經濟學人統媒不可信1F 03/28 11:36
puretd:馬幫伯出處欸 不能提了 統媒還是黨工阿2F 03/28 11:36
peteref:speciou翻成華而不實比較有味道啊…呵呵3F 03/28 11:36
mjdrcb:吱吱:經濟學仁是統沒 黨工 開始肉搜4F 03/28 11:36
peteref:specious5F 03/28 11:36
tmcharvard:吱:經濟學人是中共同路人,不可信6F 03/28 11:36
Crocodylus:(大笑)7F 03/28 11:37
※ 編輯: puec2           來自: 211.76.175.170       (03/28 11:39)
ebi:經濟學人下去領5008F 03/28 11:40
DongRaeGu:BBC中文網為近社論也是差不多立場 只是再補充現在民調很差的馬英九繼續讓這件事發酵對他執政更不利9F 03/28 11:41
chrisstar:經濟學人被國民黨收買了11F 03/28 11:41
puretd:可是八卦版現在還有一篇經濟學人鹿茸文欸12F 03/28 11:41
puec2:就是同一篇啊。13F 03/28 11:42
lostt:puec2能不能貼全文? 我已經達到economist一週三次上限,沒辦法看..Orz
原文就好14F 03/28 11:42
※ 編輯: puec2           來自: 211.76.175.170       (03/28 11:44)
※ 編輯: puec2           來自: 211.76.175.170       (03/28 11:45)
lostt:感激!17F 03/28 11:45
※ 編輯: puec2           來自: 211.76.175.170       (03/28 11:47)
liskenny:http://ppt.cc/apq5 原文連結18F 03/28 11:46
Banyan: On the antlers of a dilemma | The Economist
[圖]
THE fresh-faced good looks have been lined and drawn by the cares of office. His immaculate English is forsaken for the dignity of immaculate Mandarin. Patient... ...

 
ShionjiYuuko:怒肉蒐經濟學人19F 03/28 11:46
liskenny:現在在八卦板是一文各表  他們說經濟學人支持學生
(但明明以往都是說經濟學人是大陸打手的捏......)20F 03/28 11:46
avadar:英國美國的民主素養比不上我們台灣人
人民佔領立院是主流民意22F 03/28 11:47
puec2:經濟學生講得很清楚啦,這就是反中。24F 03/28 11:48
Sakurasai:通篇就是冷嘲熱諷啊 在嘲諷我們的總統跟學運的不切實際25F 03/28 11:48
j3307002:肉蒐經濟學人XD26F 03/28 11:48
avadar:連聯合中時,都不敢說佔立院不民主了27F 03/28 11:48
jsoccer:幫人肉28F 03/28 11:50
venusinfurs:水啦!29F 03/28 11:52
IrvinYuan:馬幫博國際認證!(咦?30F 03/28 11:53
tsgd:經濟學人又黑了 問題是前面那篇講馬幫博的其實也是隱喻暗諷31F 03/28 11:59
puec2:暗諷沒關係,我比較在意的是外國主流媒體怎樣看待主事的
學生。
其實我們很少看到外媒用"反民主"去批評抗議活動..32F 03/28 12:02
Ferysis:PPP超越日英(+1) 學生反民主(+1) 馬幫博(-1)  總分大於1就是黨工無誤35F 03/28 12:03
puec2:反民主已經是很嚴重的指控了。37F 03/28 12:03
j3307002:其實我們很少看到外媒用"反民主"去批評抗議活動XD38F 03/28 12:04
puec2:通常是政敵之間會批評對方反民主,這次經濟學人出來直接用39F 03/28 12:05
silveryfox99:就是黨工嘛(吱40F 03/28 12:05
puec2:反民主/不民主批評"學生"運動,實為罕見。41F 03/28 12:05
purin820611:抓到了! 經濟學人編輯是黨工 下去領500!42F 03/28 12:05
tsgd:自然是反民主 明明沒有力籌碼卻提出政府等同無條件投降的要求43F 03/28 12:06
j3307002:undemocratic,太明顯,不民主,經濟學人罵的好44F 03/28 12:06
sxxs: 經濟學人黑了45F 03/28 12:06
tsgd:要嘛就是真刀真槍的革命 成功了評價任你訂 失敗當然要付出代46F 03/28 12:06

我google了一下,經濟學人在什麼情形下會主動用到undemocratic這個字,
一個例子是形容緬甸國會,另一個例子是形容埃及軍政府 XDDDD
※ 編輯: puec2           來自: 211.76.175.170       (03/28 12:08)
tsgd:但現在那批人無賴般的行為 既要糖吃又不肯付代價 跨丟鬼!47F 03/28 12:07
j3307002:一個例子是形容緬甸國會,另一個例子是形容埃及軍政府XD48F 03/28 12:10
lesnaree2:職業垃圾學生49F 03/28 12:10
sxxs: 太陽花學匪 = 緬甸國會 = 埃及軍政府50F 03/28 12:11
venusinfurs:就說是反民主運動,倒退50年,一群暴民...51F 03/28 12:12
noonee:現在看到為什麼說馬英九是笨蛋的理由了吧
這種情況都還放任亂搞 當然是笨蛋52F 03/28 12:13
j3307002:要是歐美日元首早下令鎮壓54F 03/28 12:13
lesnaree2:馬到底可不可以下令進攻立院?55F 03/28 12:13
puec2:不行。國會就是王金平最大,王金平要調動軍隊保衛國會都可以56F 03/28 12:14
noonee:今天好多新聞 有江宜樺講話 有王金平講話 沒看到版友貼57F 03/28 12:15
MsKing:原來國會是治外法權(誤)58F 03/28 12:15
tina1007:就是不行啊 倒閣案去年也玩過了 不然幹嘛學生進去佔?59F 03/28 12:15
lesnaree2:後面那段說 學生操作大家對馬不信任和恐中
國外看得清清楚楚 為什麼這些學生就是不懂60F 03/28 12:16
MsKing:哪裡是不懂 本來就是反馬跟反中62F 03/28 12:18
fen1110:笑死人 你確定那句話是經濟學人在下判斷?
這是和馬英九專訪之後寫出來的文章 講的都是馬的觀點以及63F 03/28 12:19
MsKing:訴諸非民主的手段 樓上看不懂厚65F 03/28 12:19
fen1110:馬碰到的困境  這樣還不知道下這個判斷的是誰? 就是馬!
經濟學人這一篇相當的中立 指出馬的觀點的同時 也說出學生66F 03/28 12:19
MsKing:標題都跟你說是反中了 還在扯馬XD68F 03/28 12:21
fen1110:和民進黨互相利用台灣人對馬的厭倦69F 03/28 12:21
XDDD 最好是這句話是馬的觀點。你當我看不懂英文嗎?

lesnaree2:.....70F 03/28 12:21
venusinfurs:老愛來精神勝利法...71F 03/28 12:21
※ 編輯: puec2           來自: 211.76.175.170       (03/28 12:22)
lesnaree2:你去花果山跳這個針吧..72F 03/28 12:22
MsKing:精神勝利法 老招了73F 03/28 12:23
fen1110:把學生視為反民主什麼時候不是馬的觀點了XD74F 03/28 12:26
其實我有附全文,你要不要認真看完再發言?
※ 編輯: puec2           來自: 211.76.175.170       (03/28 12:27)
Sakurasai:有人不看文章就在造謠75F 03/28 12:28
yungde:真的當人家都看不懂英文,結果只能出醜76F 03/28 12:28
Sakurasai:吱吱可以不要這麼反智好嗎 這樣很難理性討論77F 03/28 12:29
dlmgn:八卦版翻譯完全漏掉那句話...各種露下線阿78F 03/28 12:29
我想也是,所以我完全懶得去看他們的翻譯。哈哈。
※ 編輯: puec2           來自: 211.76.175.170       (03/28 12:30)
sxxs: 八X版超反智的   XD79F 03/28 12:30
Sakurasai:八卦版就一群人窩在一起取暖啊 只看該版真的會覺得國家要滅亡了80F 03/28 12:30
lesnaree2:故意漏掉 真的是無腦到這樣了嗎?82F 03/28 12:33
fen1110:我才懷疑你懂英文嗎 不切實際和刻意誤導?83F 03/28 12:33
哈,我就等你這句話。我托福iBT英文閱讀只考了30分,大概真的不太懂吧。

lostt:本來想整篇翻,但太難了..Orz84F 03/28 12:33
※ 編輯: puec2           來自: 211.76.175.170       (03/28 12:34)
fen1110:使用"非民主手段"和"是反民主"的?85F 03/28 12:34
lesnaree2:戰不了其他的要戰specious這個字嗎86F 03/28 12:34
MsKing:訴諸非民主手段不是反民主不然是啥XDD87F 03/28 12:34
lesnaree2:就好像吱吱 訴諸非智能手段  的確是反智88F 03/28 12:35

台灣是民主社會,在民主社會中訴諸非民主手段,不是反民主是什麼?
※ 編輯: puec2           來自: 211.76.175.170       (03/28 12:37)
yungde:他意思大概是說用非民主手段來達成他的民(進黨做)主吧?89F 03/28 12:36
dlmgn:所以埃及跟緬甸軍政府都會使用非民主手段,沒什麼嘛90F 03/28 12:37
fen1110:你不是不懂 只不過是因為你對這篇文章下的前提:我想看出外91F 03/28 12:37

看吧,又開始誅心了~~我怎麼一點都不意外。
※ 編輯: puec2           來自: 211.76.175.170       (03/28 12:38)
MsKing:前題跟非民主手段是兩回事 柯柯92F 03/28 12:38
sxxs: 不管啦!!! 你一定不懂英文(指)93F 03/28 12:38
lostt:specious英英字典(Dr.Eye)的定義:superfically plausible,but actually wrong94F 03/28 12:38

所以我覺得我用誤導應該沒有什麼問題,誤導用得還算輕了。

吱己人這段連翻譯都不敢翻譯,竟然跑來一個字一個字的質疑把這句話
翻譯出來的人,真是好民主喔~

fen1110:媒對於學生運動的"價值判斷" 而無視這篇文章點題寫馬拒絕96F 03/28 12:38
※ 編輯: puec2           來自: 211.76.175.170       (03/28 12:40)
fen1110:承認錯誤97F 03/28 12:38
lostt:superficially:淺薄的。plausible:貌似有理的
but actually wrong,這就不用我翻譯了98F 03/28 12:39
MsKing:講不過就說經濟學人不懂 當初BUMBLER怎不這麼說呢XD206F 03/28 14:30
venusinfurs:是雞排那位T大嗎?207F 03/28 14:30
elfyblack:跟經濟內容毫無關係? 你確定嗎XD208F 03/28 14:31
pennymarkfox:唉呀,政黑要多了個雞排哥了這下...209F 03/28 14:38
koexe:經濟學人一直婊馬啊210F 03/28 15:58

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