顯示廣告
隱藏 ✕
※ 本文為 nthuhoward 轉寄自 ptt.cc 更新時間: 2013-02-24 23:38:10
看板 MLB
作者 claus (La Jolla)
標題 [外電] 不能說的規定
時間 Thu May  6 12:04:18 2010


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=crasnick_jerry&page=starting9/100505
Starting 9: Three former pitching greats -- Jim Palmer, Bert Blyleven and Goose Gossage -- share their thoughts on the proper punishment for violating the game's unwritten rules - ESPN
[圖]
What's the punishment for, say, a batter admiring his home run while standing at home plate? Three former pitching greats share their thoughts on how best to mete out justice. ...
 
http://tinyurl.com/2bg7oe6
Starting 9: Three former pitching greats -- Jim Palmer, Bert Blyleven and Goose Gossage -- share their thoughts on the proper punishment for violating the game's unwritten rules - ESPN
[圖]
What's the punishment for, say, a batter admiring his home run while standing at home plate? Three former pitching greats share their thoughts on how best to mete out justice. ...
 

Unwritten rules violations
Three former pitching greats share their thoughts on how best to mete out
justice

By Jerry Crasnick
ESPN.com
Archive

Yankees third baseman Alex Rodriguez, a perennial All-Star and Hall of Fame-
caliber lightning rod, recently landed in the middle of controversy with a
seemingly harmless jog across San Francisco's East Bay. When Rodriguez cut
across the pitcher's mound during a game against Oakland, A's pitcher Dallas
Braden took offense and ripped him for his lack of professional courtesy. The
incident set off a major turf war and prompted some inflammatory back-and-
forth in the papers.

重提A-Rod走過投手丘事件

Who knew? Each time a player tests the game's "unwritten rules,'' it spurs
debate about what is and isn't kosher. One man's gamesmanship is another's
breach of baseball's internal code.

每次這種事情發生  都會引發討論

You never know precisely what a hitter might do to irritate a pitcher.
Phillies pitcher Cole Hamels, for example, told ESPN.com that he doesn't
understand why hitters are allowed to scratch out the back line of the
batter's box to gain an extra couple of inches, or stray from the on-deck
circle to better gauge his pitches. The list of perceived transgressions is
endless.

你無法精確的知道怎樣才會惹毛一個投手。Hamels就說,他不懂為什麼打者被允許為了
把讓打擊區多幾吋,而把打擊區後面的線給抹掉,或在離開打擊準備區(下一棒打者)
的既定位置移動到更靠近投手的位置來觀察他們投球



Gossage

Blyleven

Palmer

As a public service, we sought out three prominent pitchers for their opinion
of different offenses: What's out of bounds, what's part of the game, and what
might prompt you to drill a hitter or make a mental note that he's crossed the
line?

‧ Expert No. 1: Jim Palmer, a six-time All-Star, three-time Cy Young Award
winner and proud owner of a 268-152 record with the Baltimore Orioles. Palmer
made the Hall of Fame on his first try in 1990 and currently works as an
Orioles analyst for MASN.

‧ Expert No. 2: Bert Blyleven, who won 287 games and ranks ninth on
baseball's career list in shutouts (60) and fifth in strikeouts (3,701). Now
a Minnesota Twins TV analyst, Blyleven fell five votes short of the Hall of
Fame in January and should make it to Cooperstown this winter in his 14th
appearance on the ballot.

‧ Expert No. 3: Goose Gossage, nine-time All-Star, owner of 310 career saves,
one of the most feared closers in history, and a 2008 Baseball Hall of Fame
inductee.

請來三名已退休投手來分享他們的觀點。

Palmer,好好先生,六度明星賽選手,三度CY獎,生涯268-152,效力于金鷹。1990年
首度叩關就進入HOF。

Blyleven,生涯287W,生涯完封60場排名第9,三振3701次排名第5。上次HOF票選差5票。

Gossage,九度明星賽選手,310救援成功,08年進入HOF,是一位被懼怕的投手。

The three pitching greats approached the task from different perspectives.
Blyleven ranks 17th on baseball's career list -- one spot ahead of Don
Drysdale -- with 155 hit-by-pitches. He's a staunch advocate of frontier
justice.

"That's the way I was brought up,'' Blyleven said. "It's an eye for an eye.
If you show me up, I'm going to try to knock out your eye.''

Palmer, in contrast, hit only 38 batters in 19 seasons in Baltimore. That
total ties him with Cliff Lee, Steve Blass, Hideo Nomo and 20 other pitchers
for 666th place in baseball history.

"Earl Weaver didn't believe in throwing at guys, because we had better
players, and if you throw at guys, somebody gets hurt and it hurts your
ballclub,'' Palmer said. "You just have to pick the right time.''

As for Gossage, he didn't encounter much tomfoolery in any form because of
his triple-digit fastball and imposing presence on the mound. Hitters were
usually too frightened to mess with him.

三位投手有各自的投手哲學。Blyleven生涯155觸身球,排名第17。他非常強調「正義」。

Palmer只有38次觸身球。讓他排名第666。Palmer說「何必丟別人咧,我們的球員都比較
厲害。況且,丟觸身球會讓人受傷,也會讓球隊立於不利。要選對時間。」

至於Gossage,他丟觸身球的機會不多,因為沒人敢惹毛他。他那巨大的身軀以及超過100
英里的快速球。打者看到他都變的超乖的。

In this week's Starting 9, we laid out nine common scenarios for Palmer,
Blyleven and Gossage. Their responses might be worth consulting the next time
a pitcher and hitter clash over baseball etiquette.

我們提出了九種比較常見的爭議情形來和三位投手討論。

The hitter stands at home plate and admires a home run.
What do you do?

打者打出全壘打後,在本壘瞻仰他的長打。你會怎麼辦?

Jim Palmer: "You don't want to get angry. You get even. I learned that from
Cal Ripken Sr. You're emotional, competitive, all the things that make you a
good athlete. But you can't let things affect you. It's somebody else's
actions. Do you respect them? No. Jim Rice hit nine home runs off me. So did
Graig Nettles, and they never showed me up. They never went around the bases
and put on all this [expletive].''

Palmer「你不應該生氣。你應該下次讓他出局。我們有情緒,有競爭心,一切都讓我們
成為好的運動員,但是不能讓這些東西影響你。那是別人的行為。你尊重他們嗎?當然
不。Rice跟Nettles都曾經從我手中敲出過九支全壘打,但是他們都不會這麼愛現。他們
不曾搞那麼多飛機。


Bert Blyleven: "I guess you can ask Jose Canseco that question. He did it and
I accidentally hit him in the chest area his next time up. There were some
words exchanged, all from me basically, saying, 'The next time you hit a home
run, run around the darned bases. You think you're so big and strong.' That
type of thing.

"Tony La Russa came out and I think we had some words too, in the heat of
battle. When you give up a home run, good for them. But don't show me up.
When I strike you out, I don't stand there and 'fireball' you or point at you
or laugh at you. That's part of the game.''

Blyleven「我想你可以問問Canseco這個問題。有一次他就這麼做過,他下次打擊的時候
,我就不小心失投打中他的胸部。我們之間交換了一些對話,主要是我對他說"下次
你打出全壘打,你就乖乖跑你的壘包。你以為你高大強壯嗎"那類的話。」

La Russa跑了出來,也和我吵了一下。如果你被打出全壘打,那是他們厲害。但是不要
太臭屁。我三振他們的時候,我不會在那裡對你做出奇怪姿勢或是指著你笑。這是比賽
的一部份。


Goose Gossage: "When I was pitching for the Cubs, Ron Gant hit a home run
that was eight miles foul. He stomped around the batter's box for about five
minutes because he was so bummed out. He was a rookie then and I didn't even
know who he was.

"So he's all up in arms about this ball going foul, and he's causing this big
scene while I'm out there waiting to throw the next pitch to [catcher] Jody
Davis. When he finally steps back in the box, I plug him with the first pitch.

"Gant looks out at me and says, 'What did you hit me for, man?' And I said,
'If you ever do that again, I'll hit you in the head.' He never understood,
but a year later Jody Davis went over and played for Atlanta. He told Gant,
'You must be the dumbest SOB in the league. Everybody in the stadium knew you
were going to get drilled, except you.'''

Gossage「我在小熊的時候,Gant打出了一個界外全壘打。他在打擊區大概踱了五分鐘的
腳,在那裡懊惱。他那時候還是菜鳥,我根本不知道他是誰。他那時候一直在那裡該該叫
,就只是因為一個界外球,而我卻在等他就位才能繼續投球給我的捕手Davis。當他終於
站回打擊區,我馬上用下一球K爆他。


Gant看著我說"你幹嘛打我阿?"我說"你下次再這樣,我一定K你的頭"他那時候還不懂。
一年後,Davis到勇士隊去了。他告訴Gant"你一定聯盟裡最白吃的蠢蛋。球場裡全部的人
都知道你會被K,除了你之外。"」



The hitter flips the bat or takes an excruciatingly slow home run trot. What's
your reaction?

打者打出全壘打後,甩一下球棒或是用超慢的速度跑壘。你們的反應?

Palmer: "It doesn't make you happy. It's just showing you up. The opposite of
that is, when I first met Dennis Eckersley, he was pointing at guys and
shooting them and all that. I said, 'Eck, guys want to hit home runs and
knock you out. Just pretend you did your job.' It's the same with a hitter.
It's your job. Just put your head down like Harmon Killebrew did and run.

"The only thing this stuff really does is encourage me to want to get hitters
out more. A lot of people look at it as a negative; I look at it as, 'This guy
is a complete jerk, and I don't like jerks.' Dave Winfield used to come out
and twirl the bat, and late in my career, I'd have 5 mph more on my fastball
against him.''

Palmer「那不會讓你高興。那只是在炫耀。那只是你的工作。頭低下去然後乖乖跑你的壘


Blyleven: "In the '87 World Series, Tom Lawless hit a home run off Frank
Viola and threw the bat in the air about 20 feet and thought he was Babe
Ruth. If anything helps bring a ballclub a little closer together, it's when
an opponent reacts the way he does. Everybody on your team gets pissed
together.

"You can talk about steroids all you want, but when Mark McGwire hit his home
runs, he was not a showman. He dropped the bat and ran around the bases. When
Barry Bonds hit one, he did a little twirlette; he thought he was a ballet
dancer. Even with all the armor he wore, I still would have tried to find a
place in his rib cage where he was open.''

Blyleven「87年世界大賽,Lawless夯了一支全壘打,並且把球棒甩的大概有20英尺高。
他大概自己為是Babe Ruth吧。如果要問什麼東西可以讓球隊團結,就是當對手做出類似
的行為。你們的隊友都會為此而感到不爽。


你可以儘管提禁藥,但是當大麥打出全壘打時,他不炫耀。他只會把球棒放下然後靜靜
跑壘。當Bonds打出全壘打之後,他以為他自己是芭蕾舞選手咧。不管他身上穿再多的護
具,我也要找到空隙然後狠狠砸他的肋骨。」


Gossage: "Hitters never showed me up, as hard as I threw. And I was pretty
mean out on the mound. Guys hauled ass around the bases when they hit a home
run off of me. And if they ever did [take their time], somebody was going to
get plugged. That's just the way it was.''

Gossage「打者不敢如此。我球投的很用力,而且我又很兇。全壘打之後他們都快速拖著
他們的屁股跑壘。如果他們膽敢慢慢跑,就會有人被K。就這樣而已。


The hitter runs across the mound while you're nowhere near it.
Is that an issue?

你不在投手丘附近,打者走過投手丘。這是個問題嗎?

Palmer: "I don't have any problem with that. Why would I care?''

Palmer「我沒問題。我為什麼會有問題?」

Blyleven: "It doesn't make any difference to me whether I'm standing on it or
not -- that's my mound and you stay off my mound. When the left fielder runs
from the first base dugout to left field between innings, you never see him
run across the mound. You just don't see players running across the mound.''

Blyleven「這無關我是否在投手丘附近。那是我的投手丘,你們都最好別踏上來。當
左外野手從外野要回一壘休息室時,你不會看到他跨過投手丘。球員就是不應該踏過
投手丘。「


Gossage: "I'm sure I would have taken offense to it had it happened, but it
never happened. I don't ever remember seeing a baserunner who was all the way
to third base run back across the mound. It was kind of a respectful thing.
It probably would have been taken as an 'in your face.'"

Gossage「我當然會很介意,但是這從來沒發生過。我不曾記得看過有人如此。如果真的
有人這樣,我會當作是針對我而來的。」


The hitter crosses the mound while you are standing on it.
Is there a difference?

你在投手丘上,有打者尬過去。有差嗎?

Palmer: "That doesn't bother me, either. I don't think A-Rod probably thought
anything about it. But I do admire Dallas Braden for what he did, because it
took some cojones. To his credit, he was able to yell and scream and it didn't
affect his performance.''

Palmer「這對我也不是什麼。我想A-Rod大概也覺得沒什麼。但是我推崇Braden的行為,
因為要那樣是需要帶種的。他表達了他的情緒,也沒影響到他的表現。」

Blyleven: "It's not right what A-Rod did. He could have run around the mound.
You respect the game of baseball and you respect your opponents.
"I saw the interview with A-Rod, and the arrogance he showed. He should have
said, 'Hey, I'm really sorry. I didn't realize I did that.' Instead, he made
a circus out of it. I believe Braden had every right to be upset; A-Rod ran
straight across the mound, and he's very good at lying. He said, 'I don't
remember that.'

"Don't be surprised if Braden pitches against the Yankees and A-Rod is up,
and in the right situation Braden may come up-and-in on him or make him move
his feet a little bit or even drill him. The sad part is, in today's game,
the discipline a player can get for hitting another guy isn't the same as it
was in the '70s. It's hard to do the 'eye for an eye' now.''

Blyleven「A-Rod的行為是不對的。他可以繞過投手丘。你尊敬棒球,並且尊敬你的對手
。我看了他的訪問,以及他所表現出來的自大。他應該表示歉意,並且試著解釋他沒有
想到那一環。他沒以如此說,反而火上加油。我認為Braden有權不高興。A-Rod直直的穿
過投手丘,而且他善於說謊。他說他不記得了。」


下次如果Braden再對洋基投球,而且輪到A-Rod打擊,並且時機適合的話,別太驚訝如果
出現內角高球或是內角低球,甚至觸身球。可悲的是,今天的規則,對觸身球的處罰和
70年代的處罰不一樣了。現在很難一報還一報了。


Gossage: "I was so mean, even my teammates were afraid to come on the mound.
I remember once in San Diego, I was really struggling. They wanted to get the
bullpen going, and [manager] Larry Bowa yelled to John Kruk to come out and
talk to me to buy some time.

"There's dust flying, I'm kicking the ground and I'm mad as hell, and I sense
somebody standing by me. It's Kruk, standing on the grass. I looked at Kruk
and I said, 'This better be good, [expletive].' Kruk was just a rookie then,
and he was petrified. He turned around and ran back to first base. He never
said a word.''

Gossage「我兇到連我的隊友都不敢上投手丘。我記得有一次我在SD,我那時候投的很爛
。他們想要讓牛朋熱身,所以教練叫Kruk來跟我講話以爭取時間。

塵土飛揚。我生氣的踹著地,然後我感覺到身旁有人。我看到Kruk,站在草地上。我對
他說"他媽的這最好重要"那時候Kruk還是個菜鳥,他嚇呆了。他轉身就回一壘。他一個
字都沒說」


Is bunting to break up a no-hitter a violation of baseball's unwritten rules?

為了破壞無安打而短打,如何?

Palmer: "Heck, I did it in Little League against [a kid] because he was going
to strike out 18 out of 18. I pitched a no-hitter and [the Orioles] scored
eight runs, but it might be the appropriate play. It's part of the game.
Plus, if a guy can bunt, I usually want my infielders playing in to defend
the bunt anyway.''

Palmer「我小時候就曾經這樣幹過,因為對方投手即將達成面對18人三振18人咧。這是
比賽的一部份。況且,如果打者是短打好手,我通常會要我的內野手提防短打。」

Blyleven: "Your goal as a hitter is to get on. And if the third baseman is
playing back and letting you lay down a bunt, I don't have a problem with
that even if it's late in a no-hitter. Their goal is to try to win the game
-- not to help a guy get a no-hitter.''

Blyleven「打者的目的就是上壘。如果三壘手守的比較深容許你短打的話,我沒有什麼意
見,就算是比賽尾端無安打的情況。他們的目的是贏球,不是幫人達成無安打。」

Gossage: "I never took offense to that. Nolan Ryan used to take offense to
guys trying to bunt off him. Nolan used to give guys his so-called 'bow tie.'
I just figured it's part of a hitter's job. And I was a guy you could bunt on,
because I couldn't field anything on the third-base side.

Usually a no-hitter is a tight ballgame, and they're trying to beat you. You
need baserunners, and I can't blame the opposition for trying to get on base.
If the game is out of reach, then it's a different story. I would take offense
to that. I'd drill the SOB. 'If you want to get on base, here, I'll put you on
base.'''

Gossage「我不會感覺到不悅。我覺得那是打者的工作。更何況我是個很容易被短打成功
的人,因為我三壘邊的防守超爛的。

通常無安打的比賽比數都咬的很緊,他們也想要打敗你。他們需要跑者,所以我不會怪他
們用盡任何方式上壘。如果比賽分數差很多了,那就大大的不同。我會非常的介意。我會
砸死他們這些混蛋。如果你要上壘,我來讓你上壘吧!」



What's your response if a hitter calls timeout while you're in the middle of
your windup?

如果你在投球動作中打者突然叫暫停,如何?

Palmer: "We were taught not to wear your emotions on your sleeve, so you just
have to internalize all this stuff. It makes you want to get the guy out even
more. Some people have a legitimate reason, but if you do it a couple of times,
then it's annoying."

Palmer「我們被教導不要讓感情表現於外。這樣會你更加想要讓他出局。有些人叫暫停
有合理的理由,但是如果太多次,會覺得很討厭。」

Blyleven: "If it's the same guy day-in and day-out who's always asking for
time, then it might be a problem. But I think the umpires are trying to control
that a little better to keep the game moving. We just did a game where Denard
Span asked for time, and the pitcher was already in his stretch position, and
Gerry Davis was the umpire and he didn't give it to him. The umps are trying
to make it so guys can't step out all the time."

Blyleven「如果永遠都是同一個人這樣,也許就會有問題了。但是我認為裁判在這方面
已經進步很多。前些日子我才擔任一場球賽的球評,Span要求暫停,投手已經在投球了。
Davis裁判沒有同意暫停。裁判在努力讓這類事情減少發生。」

Gossage: "When Buck Rodgers was managing in Montreal, they used to step out
to break up my timing because I worked fast. I didn't go after the hitters. I
walked off the mound, threw the rosin bag down and motioned with my finger
for Buck to come on out. I was going to kick his ass. I heard later that the
hitters told Buck they didn't want to do it anymore."

Gossage「當Rodgers當Mon的教練的時候,因為我的投球節奏很快,所以他們常常會要求
暫停以打亂我的節奏。我們沒去K打者。我下投手丘,把防滑包狠狠的扔下,用手指示意
Buck叫他出來。我準備狠狠的扁他。我後來聽說打者們跟Buck說他們不要在這樣了」


What do you do if you catch a hitter peeking back at a catcher's setup, or
getting signs relayed to him from a teammate on second base?

如果你們發現打者偷看捕手暗號,或是二壘跑者偷看並且傳給打者?

Palmer: "I was pitching one night against Jim Spencer, and he used to live in
Baltimore. He played basketball with us in the offseason, and he was a friend
of mine. [Catcher] Rick Dempsey came out to the mound and said, 'Spencer is
looking back at the signs.' So I walked off the mound and said, 'If you do
that again, I'll hit you in the side of the head.' I threw the next ball
right down the middle and he took it for Strike 3."

Palmer「有一天我投球對上Spencer。他是我的朋友。捕手Dempsey出來跟我說"他在偷看
暗號"所以我走下投手丘,跟他說"下次你再這樣,我會K你的頭"下一球我投正中直球。
他看著被三振。」


Blyleven: "That's a no-no. I don't think too many players peek back at the
catcher. If they're caught, it's up to that pitcher or catcher to say
something. 'If you do it again, there's going to be repercussions.'

"Ted Simmons and I had words one time in Milwaukee when he was at second base.
I came into my stretch position and turned around real quick, and he was
staring right in giving the signs. I stepped off and we had some words. I had
an incident with Paul Molitor where I thought he was peeking [at the catcher],
and I settled it right there."

Blyleven「這絕對不行。我不覺得有太多打者會偷看。如果他們被抓包,投手或是捕手
要警告他們,再看會有後果的。

有次我抓到Simmons在二壘偷看暗號。我馬上離開投手丘然後跟他溝通。有次我抓到
Molitor偷看捕手。我也是當場解決。」

Gossage: "If we thought hitters were getting signs relayed signs from second
base, we would call a breaking ball, and then I'd throw a fastball up and in.
That stopped it right then. It was over. They were done."

Gossage「如果我們認為二壘跑者再偷看暗號,我們會比變化球的暗號,然後我會頭內角
高直球。這通常都會解決一切」

If you think a hitter intentionally leaned over the plate to get hit by a
pitch, how do you respond?

如果你認為有打者故意靠向本壘故意被觸身,會如何?

Palmer: "I didn't get annoyed very much. But Damaso Garcia stuck his elbow out,
and he was going down the first-base line. I said, 'If you're going to pull
that crap, I can hit you where it's really going to hurt.' It was a 2-0
ballgame and I guess he was just trying to get on base. But I didn't like it."

Palmer「我通常不會感到不爽。但是Garcia有一次把他的手肘伸出去故意被觸身。當他往
一壘跑的時候,我跟他說"如果你還要搞這種飛機,我會打到真的會讓你痛的地方"當時
比賽2-0,也許他只是想要上壘,但是我很不高興。」

Blyleven: "It happened the other day in Detroit. Miguel Cabrera got hit with
a pitch inside, and we showed the replay and he hardly even moved. He knew he
had that pad on his left elbow area and he just kind of left his arm out there
and got hit. There was no intent to try to get out of the way.

"You see a guy like Jason Kendall, and he's from the old school: You don't see
him wearing armor and all that stuff. We had a guy in the '70s, Cesar Tovar,
who was notorious for sticking his elbow out there. And Ron Hunt would lean
into a fastball to get on base. I don't think these guys today should be
allowed to wear a pad. David Ortiz is a designated hitter. He doesn't have to
throw anymore. Why does he get to wear a pad?"

Blyleven「Cabrera有次被觸身球。我們看了重播,他幾乎沒有動。他知道他有護具,
所以他就故意讓他的左肘被打中。他沒有要閃的意圖。

你看看像Kendall這種傳統球員。他不會穿那些盔甲。老爹Ortiz是個DH。他又不用傳球
。他為什麼可以帶護具?」

Gossage: "I threw so hard that people never played many games like that with
me. It just didn't happen -- because you'd get killed."

Gossage「我投球投那麼用力,沒人敢如此。會死人的」

How offended are you if a hitter takes a big rip at a 3-0 pitch when his team
is way ahead?

如果球數3壞0好,對方大幅領先,而打者仍揮大棒,會如何?

Palmer: "I think that's over the line. What goes around, comes around. That's
the thing. If guys show you up, sooner or later something is going to happen.
It's bad karma. Just play the game respectfully."

Palmer「我覺得這超過了。因果報應。你今天臭屁,總有一天會得到報應。要尊敬比賽」

Blyleven: "If a guy takes a big swing like that, yeah, I would be upset. Don
Mattingly hit a home run off me many years ago at the Metrodome, and the next
pitch was a fastball and Dave Winfield left his feet swinging at it. The next
pitch Winfield was leaving his feet to get out of the way. He was picking
himself up off the ground.

"Guys swing hard. I don't have a problem with that. But as a pitcher who
pitched every fourth or fifth day, that was my bread and butter. I had to
have my game face on. When you're not at the top of your game and you feel
like the other team is laughing and embarrassing you by doing certain things,
it's time to retaliate."

Blyleven「如果打者揮大棒,我當然會不想。有一年Mattingly從我手中敲出HR。下一
棒,Winfield第一球也會大棒,揮到腳都離地了。第二球,他腳也離地了,只是卻是為了
閃球。他整個人閃到地上去狼狽的爬起來。


打者揮大棒。這我沒有意見。但是當你覺得你被對方嘲笑或羞辱的時候,你會做一些事情
以求報復」

Gossage: "If a guy screws himself into the ground, I'm going to undress him.
I might not drill him, but I'm going to send a message.

"The score of the game definitely comes into play. Guys used to quit playing
if the score was 17-0. The game was out of reach, it was in check, and it was
over for all intents and purposes. It was just a respect thing -- you didn't
want to show the other team up. Now guys want to pad their stats."

Gossage「如果有人這樣,一定會有後果的。我不一定會K他,但是一定會讓他知道。

分數差距當然也有醒想。以前如果差到17分的時候,就不太認真的比賽。球賽結果已成定
局,球賽就某種意義而言已經結束了。不會想要向別隊炫耀。現在,每個人都在衝數據。


Special bonus question: If a player on your team gets drilled, are you
obligated to respond?

如果你的隊友被K,你是否有義務回敬?

Palmer: "In Cal Ripken's first year, in '82, we'd had some guys get hit and
Cal said, 'When is somebody going to protect somebody around here?' I didn't
like Carlton Fisk anyway, because he hit me so well. So one game I just
drilled him. It wasn't a very sensible thing to do, and why I was listening
to a rookie, I don't know. Maybe I knew that Cal was going to end up in the
Hall of Fame one day."

Palmer「Ripken的第一年,我們有人被K了。Ripken就說"什麼時候才會有人保護我們
的打者?"反正我也沒很喜歡Fisk,因為他通常打我的球都打得很好,所以有一場比賽,
我就咂他了。那不是很理性的行為,我也不知道我為什麼要聽一個菜鳥的話,我真的不
知道。也許我知道將來他會是HOF的一員。」


Blyleven: "I don't care if it's my No. 1 hitter or my No. 9 hitter, you know
when the other pitcher is doing something on purpose. I remember one time in
Kansas City, I had a 5-0 shutout going into the ninth inning, and Juan
Beniquez was our center fielder [with Texas]. He hit a three-run homer that
day, and in his final at-bat they threw a ball at his head and it went back
to the backstop.

"Our whole team was yelling, and I knew what I needed to do. Sid Hudson, the
pitching coach, came over and said, 'Don't do anything. Get the shutout, and
we'll get them another time.' Frank Lucchesi, our manager, said the same thing.

"I didn't say anything. I went out there and took my eight warm-up tosses,
and then I drilled Darrell Porter right in the ribs with my first pitch. To
me, there's a time when you have to protect your teammates. If I didn't do
that, I would have lost face with my ballclub. If I don't protect Juan
Beniquez right there, I'm the biggest sissy out there. And I'm not a sissy."

Blyleven「我不管是我們第一棒還第九棒,只要我知道別隊投手是故意的。我記得有一次
在KC,要進入第九局,我們5-0領先。我們的CF那天夯了一支3分砲,所以在他最後一次打
擊的時候,對方投了一個飛越他頭上方直擊後面護網的暴投。


我們全隊都在叫,而我也知道我該做啥。投手教練過來跟我說:你等等什麼都別做。拿到
完封,然後下次我們再報復。教練也是跟我這麼說的。

我什麼都沒說。我上投手丘,投了我的八個暖身球,然後第一球我就砸了Porter的肋骨。
對我而言,有些時候你要保護你的隊友。如果我沒這麼做,我在球隊裡會失去立足之地。
如果我沒有保護我們的CF,我就是球場上最大的娘砲。我決不是娘砲。」


Gossage: "We were playing Baltimore one year in Fort Lauderdale early in
spring training. Graig Nettles comes up and Mike Flanagan drills him in the
wrist with the first pitch. OK, fine. Then somebody takes out Willie Randolph
at second base and they almost kill him. OK, fine. Nothing was said. Nobody
got upset. That was the way the game was played at the time. But we knew when
we had a chance, we'd take care of it.

"Later in spring training I was on the mound and Al Bumbry, their leadoff
hitter, came to the plate. I hit him on the point of the hip as hard as I
could throw. He fell down in the box and he was going around like a top. He
was break dancing in the batter's box. I'm telling you, I had never seen
anything like it. I came in the dugout after that inning was over and
everybody was like, 'Hey Goose, way to go. Thanks, man.' They all knew what
it was for. It wasn't that big a deal. But there's a time and a place to take
care of business, and we took care of business."

Gossage「有年春訓我們跟BAL比賽。Nettles第一球就被球K到手腕。沒人說話。然後有人
在二壘狠狠的觸殺Randolph,差點要了他的命。還是沒人說話。沒人生氣。當下比賽就那
樣進行,但是我們知道時機到的時候我們會把握的。


處訓後段,我在投手丘上。他們第一棒上來打擊。我用了我最大的力氣狠狠K中他腰部。
他在打擊區癱下,像個陀螺般轉來轉去。像街舞般跳著。告訴你,我從來沒看過如此的
情景。那局結束之後回到休息區,每個人都對我說:Goose,幹的好。謝啦!他們都知道
那是為什麼。那不是什麼大不了的事情。但永遠有處理事情的時間地點,而我們把事情
處理好了。


Jerry Crasnick is a senior writer for ESPN.com. Click here to purchase a copy of his book, "License To Deal," published by Rodale. Crasnick can be reached via e-mail.

--
--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 140.109.55.232
blossomleave:推好文1F 05/06 12:06
kimifort:短打破壞無安打→打者的工作  大比數揮大棒→會有報應  ?2F 05/06 12:11
kimifort:這邏輯我真的不懂

他有說  通常無安打比賽的時候比數都會是接近的
所以這時候如果是為了求上壘而短打  就沒什麼好吵的
不能因為無安打比賽而要求對方不能短打
但是他也有提到  如果比數已經差很多了  那麼再短打的話就可能會有爭議

vic1201:Goose超殺XD4F 05/06 12:12
numblife:不是 "不能說的規定" 是 "不成文的規定" ...unwritten5F 05/06 12:13
kenchoukc:不管你多大牌都不要去冒犯別人的領域這是重點6F 05/06 12:14
numblife:不能說跟不成文意思上根本不同  "不能說"就變成秘密了7F 05/06 12:14
numblife:"不成文"(UNWRITTEN)則是指 "沒有明文規定"但是可以說的
jayin07:threw so hard是指他球速很快9F 05/06 12:15
numblife:推你翻譯的用心 但很多錯別字請修一下好嗎10F 05/06 12:16

有差嗎  有錯別字您就挑出來吧
我翻文章只是為了分享  我盡可能的注意錯別字
但是我用的輸入法就是會自動選字  有些我也沒注意
您要是因為這樣無法看懂這篇文章  您也不用在意太多  比我強的譯者太多了
您可以去拜讀他們的翻譯

不成文  不能說  根本就是兩碼子的東西

舉不成文法為例,是形式上沒有被統一寫在某一個地方  而是分散存在於各地方
例如各種習慣  法院判例  國際條約等等
但是,不成文的東西都是大家都認可

這篇講的東西  大家都有認可嗎?  光是A-ROD事件  就已經分好幾派了
這算哪門子的不成文規定阿
更何況unwritten是指沒有被寫下來的  完全跟不成文是不同意思

unwritten  我認為是想說大家都知道  (不一定大家都認可)  但無法浮上台面的規定
我之所以翻成不能說  因為有所謂的政治正確這種東西
有些東西也許是對的  但是就是不能講出來
不就跟某前法務部長一樣  因為把不能說的東西說出來  而只能拍拍屁股走人

JShark:推翻譯用心11F 05/06 12:17
Ybrother:推用心12F 05/06 12:19
james7800243:全文看完  感謝認真的翻譯  ^^13F 05/06 12:20
h2526bc:Gossage 好屌哦  我好愛他XDDDD14F 05/06 12:20
supetaco:Gossage「我投球投那麼用力,沒人敢如此。會死人的」好酷15F 05/06 12:20
cktonthuls:推翻譯16F 05/06 12:22
oopsmamamiya:好文章 看得很爽17F 05/06 12:23
meier0112:時代不同了18F 05/06 12:23
aaaaa0703:好文推推19F 05/06 12:25
jemc1905:推y20F 05/06 12:25
kimkim:其實我覺得也應該訪問一下打者比較平衡21F 05/06 12:26
NightGod:裡面A ROD觸犯不少22F 05/06 12:27
pengyunghuai:PUSH23F 05/06 12:27
kimifort:其實從一些文章就能看出來了 野手幾乎不會去mound24F 05/06 12:28
kimifort:如果踩mound真的是什麼稀鬆平常的事 就不會一堆人嚷嚷
Biedrins:實在太好笑啦  翻得真好26F 05/06 12:28
therock0809:我就不小心失投打中他的胸部XDDD27F 05/06 12:29
kimifort:我也不清楚是怎樣的情況又讓Arod特地去採納個mound28F 05/06 12:29
kimifort:mound又不是什麼十幾公分高的小土丘  幹嘛自找麻煩
kinteneach:A-ROD在那時候的話可能已經被觸身球砸死了...30F 05/06 12:33
kimifort:還真的是十幾公分  我以為是20~30高  @@31F 05/06 12:33
frank123ya:Gossage讓我笑到快往生 沒人敢如此。會死人的XDDDDDDD32F 05/06 12:34
frank123ya:A-ROD踩到Gossage的投手丘不知道會發生什麼事(抖抖
ayen1985:Gossage「我投球投那麼用力,沒人敢如此。會死人的」好威34F 05/06 12:34
BlitzX:gossage一整個是打架狂的感覺35F 05/06 12:35
timmyen:Palmer真是好人xd36F 05/06 12:37
lepidoptera:來個變化球指令 然後投內角高直球 真是夠暗黑 XD37F 05/06 12:38
MSmax:會死人的XD38F 05/06 12:40
kee32:Gossage超有魄力!39F 05/06 12:42
Fenixbroken:Palmer真是個好人 他觀念跟另外兩個很明顯不同40F 05/06 12:45
bravetiger:瞻仰全壘打XDDD41F 05/06 12:48
erniechc:Gossage:我很兇 我很兇 我真的很兇42F 05/06 12:49
charlie01:應該要訪打者才比較平衡+1 感覺被侵犯或不尊重比賽的話43F 05/06 12:49
notmuchmoney:何不訪問名人堂打者看看 全部訪問投手 預設立場..44F 05/06 12:49
charlie01:近身球.警告.叫囂都是OK的 但是拿棒球砸人是會出事的...45F 05/06 12:50
kimifort:如果打者也覺得ok的話就不會這幾年來只有Arod一例46F 05/06 12:50
charlie01:不是帥氣爽就好...說得好像不爽就砸人是個美德似的...47F 05/06 12:51
tsaiwaichen:Bonds真的是超級不得人緣 他夯HR會站在原地看在慢慢跑48F 05/06 12:52
tsaiwaichen:Manny也會 不過Manny跑壘速度就正常一點 不過還是很邱
bachelour:Gossage反正就是要丟人就是XD50F 05/06 12:53
sunalmon:有趣給推 也謝謝用心翻譯 0.051F 05/06 12:54
CGary:一定有人會想去問一下打者的...不過這只代表Braden生氣也沒52F 05/06 12:55
CGary:甚麼 反正就打打嘴砲而已 比起他前輩們的嘴砲 也還好而已XD
TOOCOOLICQ:推 絕不娘砲!!!!!54F 05/06 12:57
BlitzX:所以投手不尊重打者的話 打者可以拿球棒上去嗎?55F 05/06 12:58
kimifort:不拿球棒幹架好像真的是不成文規定喔  = =;;56F 05/06 12:59
Zamned:不能拿球棒 但是能夠玩自由搏擊57F 05/06 13:00
v32767:怎麼感覺這些大投手動不動就想砸人= =  這不是投手的權利吧58F 05/06 13:00
BlitzX:所以投手可以先用球砸 打者就只能用肉拳...59F 05/06 13:00
therock0809:拿球棒幹架 動作太大了吧 會先被幹倒在地上..60F 05/06 13:00
Narancia:各大職業運動都不能拿傢伙上去打架吧 XD61F 05/06 13:00
frank123ya:球是瞬間 你拿棒子可以尻到死 哪個比較嚴重62F 05/06 13:00
Narancia:摔角那類的不列入其中 XD63F 05/06 13:01
frank123ya:你有看過有人幹架是握著球打人打到死的嗎64F 05/06 13:01
BlitzX:球尻到頭難道就不嚴重?65F 05/06 13:01
Zamned:這篇也只能證明 打者太白目就會被修理66F 05/06 13:01
Zamned:哪裡可以延伸到投手動不動就想修理打者= =
foggerx12x13:666數字,投手好邪惡!68F 05/06 13:04
knetlalala:Gossage超好笑XD  "會死人的!"   謝謝翻譯69F 05/06 13:12
ted40905:水平飛球70F 05/06 13:12
albertjet:推這篇,有趣的文章71F 05/06 13:13
Fanicom:推推~72F 05/06 13:13
HomeKei:看到娘砲那段我笑翻了XDDD73F 05/06 13:14
PttDreaming:球場的人都知道你會被K 除了你之外XDDD74F 05/06 13:16
timohu:XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDd75F 05/06 13:20
kimifort:推你的補充說明 的確比你強的譯者很多76F 05/06 13:22
delay815:名人堂背書!!!!可以開始選要K AROD那裡了嗎???77F 05/06 13:24
NightGod:MLB版正義魔人很多78F 05/06 13:24
jagdzaku:贏過只會發嘴砲噓文的就夠用了79F 05/06 13:25
DamnDre:Palmer脾氣哪有這麼好.........80F 05/06 13:25
vulcan1101:Gossage好秋 不喜歡81F 05/06 13:26
goodjohn08:直得推!82F 05/06 13:26
kimifort:那個部分 我以為攻擊就是打者的工作 不應該因比分差差別83F 05/06 13:27
kimifort:待遇 一邊說能體諒是打者的工作 一方面又說太白目會被尻

所以說  每個人都對這些「規定」有各自的看法
在還沒納入MLB正式規則裡面之前   永遠都是公說公有理  婆說婆有理

charlie01:numblife是從語言的特性去分辨 原po您是從法律的方式去85F 05/06 13:28
hhashoww:推一個!!!!!86F 05/06 13:28
kimifort:打者也是要拼成績拼薪水的 又不是吃公家鐵飯碗87F 05/06 13:28
charlie01:解釋 兩者都對 不過出發點不同 沒什麼交集吧:P88F 05/06 13:28
kimifort:unwriiten就算不接近不成文 翻成不能說也沒有比較正確89F 05/06 13:30
bigsun0709:Gossage「我投球投那麼用力,沒人敢如此。會死人的」90F 05/06 13:30
kimifort:不成文或許要有普遍認同或權威背書91F 05/06 13:31
kimifort:在這裡或許不是很適當 但不能說意思差更遠
awano:這麼有趣的文章  大家打打嘴砲而已  那麼認真幹麻  好笑93F 05/06 13:32
kimifort:通篇文章都沒提到能不能 不應該是翻成不能說94F 05/06 13:32
waitla:不成文的意思就是沒有被寫下來 但確實存在於習慣之中95F 05/06 13:38
waitla:本來就不該翻成不能說
claus:不成文不是沒有被寫下來  而是散落各出處97F 05/06 13:44
otonik:good98F 05/06 13:45
kimifort:你要不要去翻一本字典來跟我們講99F 05/06 13:45
super009:原PO應該只是單純想借某電影名kuso一下標題而已100F 05/06 13:46
APNA:我竟然全看完了,推~~101F 05/06 13:46
pokeo:有看有推 謝謝大大的翻譯.102F 05/06 13:48
cwcunleashed:超好笑的 推拉103F 05/06 13:49
pokeo:一些人 只會打嘴砲. 怎麼不翻一篇來看看?.不想看不要進來104F 05/06 13:49
plant:三壞球時打擊通常都會等一個球看看吧 幹嘛揮大棒幫投手@@105F 05/06 13:51
s9527206:我也傾向於翻譯成"不成文",另外表達不同意見也不行嗎?106F 05/06 13:51
pokeo:http://ppt.cc/nm@i   gossage感覺是個好好先生.沒想到107F 05/06 13:51
[圖]
 
plant:我想這邊指的情形比較像是故意揮大棒送投手一個好球數而不是108F 05/06 13:52
plant:咬中紅中的失投球所揮的那種大棒 前者有反正我贏定啦放個水
plant:的感覺 這樣就有點不尊重對手也不尊重比賽 但是無安打使用短
plant:打是不放棄所有機會進行反擊 而不是反正都輸了就送你無安打
chrisinptt:Goose 超man的拉..112F 05/06 13:55
plant:個人感覺文中的意思是這樣._.113F 05/06 13:56
paoan:很有趣114F 05/06 13:58
KennyKuo:Gossage真的很兇...115F 05/06 13:58
xDSL:Gossage: 想上壘? 我來送你一程        好威啊 XDD116F 05/06 14:02
Zamned:不成文按照英美法的意思跟claus大解釋的是一樣的117F 05/06 14:07
atib:推認真翻譯  噓的人有本事自己翻一篇來看阿118F 05/06 14:09
atib:不過Gossage實在是很殺阿XD
FlyFreedom:感謝翻譯,另推鵝公120F 05/06 14:12
ROYALFZ:Gossage 帥氣121F 05/06 14:13
JLH:就只是翻譯...有什麼吵的122F 05/06 14:13
ihsan:推翻譯,想看打者的說法+1123F 05/06 14:14
Poleaxe:推薦這篇文章124F 05/06 14:15
California:推這篇文章!125F 05/06 14:19
lovemost:先推126F 05/06 14:24
lynked:如果這篇要傳達的意思是你如果夠兇狠就什麼都可以作,那我127F 05/06 14:29
lynked:不懂為何打者不能挑釁投手?打者就比較可年嗎?
lynked:搞的好像投手故意投觸身球就是夠man,打者甩棒、跑壘剷人、
lynked:衝撞捕手就是沒品?
a2156700:嚴禁洗數據131F 05/06 14:36
iluy:以暴制暴 下等人的騎士精神 美果佬不意外132F 05/06 14:36
NICK120:推某樓  都是投手在靠杯 打者的專訪咧133F 05/06 14:37
csqeszzz:不成文法之所以大家都認可是因為"法"的本質  而非僅是134F 05/06 14:41
csqeszzz:形容詞作用的"不成文"三個字吧  (這好像有點離題)
FlyFreedom:樓上是對的136F 05/06 14:45
Fitzwilliam:打者手上有球棒,立足點已經不太平等了,是這樣嗎?XD137F 05/06 14:47
charlie01:其實也沒什麼本不本質吧 習慣法本來就只是隨時代演進138F 05/06 14:48
charlie01:法學體系和社會思維改變 判了 然後變成判例而已...
charlie01:所以不成文法也是不斷在被挑戰.不斷在修正的...
csqeszzz:歐 我的意思是:本來就是大家都必須遵守的才叫法141F 05/06 14:51
FlyFreedom:重點是法律字眼未必適用在所有修辭上142F 05/06 14:51
csqeszzz:而非意指法是固定不會變動的東西  造成誤會請見諒143F 05/06 14:52
charlie01:太客氣了 我也只是打打嘴砲:P144F 05/06 14:53
Mrlegend:Gossage超好笑145F 05/06 15:02
hikaruton:真的是很投手自以為~打者看投手太邱就不能不爽?146F 05/06 15:04
rayven:推翻譯,不過太一面之詞了,全是投手立場147F 05/06 15:05
HansLee:這篇該M 翻得真傳神148F 05/06 15:06
Mrlegend:我絕不是娘娘腔!149F 05/06 15:09
eanson11:純推用心翻譯150F 05/06 15:09
rayven:這三位投手應該都是一暴還一暴時代的球員吧151F 05/06 15:15
rayven:話說揮出去後看球飛有時是一種習慣,像王貞治也會
u83cjo4:阿其實就是互相嘴砲而已~~153F 05/06 15:19
KerwinKao:嘛..打出去之後看著球飛邊跑是一回事..154F 05/06 15:19
rayven:尤其是球沿著界外線飛時打者有時會不想白跑155F 05/06 15:19
KerwinKao:打出去之後根本不跑看著球飛就是另外一回事了....XD156F 05/06 15:19
LeftVision:感謝用心的翻譯157F 05/06 15:20
KerwinKao:(有這種不想白跑的想法可能就會被非議唷..XDDD)158F 05/06 15:20
rayven:放心,這是大打者的特權,王貞治揮棒後半蹲在打擊區確認球159F 05/06 15:23
rayven:飛出去後才張開雙臂起跑好像也沒聽說有被幹剿過
LujouPico:投手了不起喔161F 05/06 15:31
Fernandeo:打者應該有些方式反制吧,這樣變成好像投手說了算。162F 05/06 15:32
Fernandeo:Mauer 去年有一次在二壘偷暗號後來好像也沒事。
supetaco:其實這篇都訪問投手 所以會有偏投手言論也不意外164F 05/06 15:34
supetaco:只是訪問打者 打者如果不爽投手除了幹砲還能怎麼辦?
TBDTBD:好文推!166F 05/06 15:36
Fernandeo:我至少想到兩個方式,除了讓己方投手幫忙之外,還可以衝167F 05/06 15:39
crow0801:Gossage「我投球投那麼用力,沒人敢如此。會死人的」168F 05/06 15:40
crow0801:感謝翻譯 這篇很有趣 XDD
Fernandeo:撞野手,技巧夠好打一壘方向吸引投手過來補位。這樣他可170F 05/06 15:41
Fernandeo:能就會考慮到自己也有可能付出代價。
abc0922001:第298行 牛朋>>牛棚172F 05/06 15:43
abc0922001:414行最後 頭內角>>投內角
DrizztMon:推球場裡全部的人都知道你會被K174F 05/06 15:56
pedro501:我不是娘砲175F 05/06 16:02
avalanche200:這篇太有趣了!!!XD 會死人的呢!176F 05/06 16:03
KerwinKao:對了..王貞治沒打過MLB...說不定來打就會被丟了..XDDDDD177F 05/06 16:18
JohnMcDonald:Blyleven超man的~ 你不是娘砲!(大拇指)178F 05/06 16:28
nolander:好文 不過可以不用那麼嗆吧 又不是名人堂譯者179F 05/06 16:48
TKWdEmoN:好文180F 05/06 16:50
taojjo:推181F 05/06 16:50
tomho1202:好文推! 希望改天也來訪問一下 強打者的看法182F 05/06 17:17
tomho1202:棒子爺 大麥克 漢克阿倫  之類的
shawncarter:好文推 !!!!!!!184F 05/06 17:27
ThreeNG:簡單說就是有仇必報 (>▽<)185F 05/06 17:31
goodman5566:推~186F 05/06 17:42
borriss:真難想像Kruk只敢站在草地上  XD187F 05/06 18:20
foggerx12x13:某位製造麻煩的人呢?那麼不爽怎麼不來自己翻?188F 05/06 18:26
MVPartest:好兇...189F 05/06 18:30
Spiezio:好文一篇!讚!190F 05/06 18:37
notmuchmoney:不知道小王子被觸身球會不會發狂..191F 05/06 18:49
leon04277:靠北,這篇文章快讓我笑死了XDDD 超幽默的!192F 05/06 18:51
Orcish:193F 05/06 19:31
trollwitch:有看有推194F 05/06 19:32
MTal:好文195F 05/06 19:36
BrainDeath:推  感謝你的用心翻譯!!196F 05/06 19:37
qwerewq:好文推~197F 05/06 19:41
※ 編輯: claus           來自: 111.240.148.63       (05/06 19:53)
skycrawler:推這篇~不過我還是想看看打者們怎麼說198F 05/06 20:40
sading7:AROD果然白目麻,做了其他人都不會做的事,就連換防時也不199F 05/06 20:43
sading7:會有野手跑去踩投手丘,當初護航的AROD信徒出來面對啊
kie0522:不曉得為甚麼 打者炫耀一下 被投手丟觸身球就是活該= ="201F 05/06 21:04
muzzle:推翻譯 後面那2位投手打得真的是棒球嗎202F 05/06 21:21
borriss:連形象牌的小根都叫名人堂投手去K名人堂捕手了203F 05/06 21:24
L0v35:推XDDDDDDD204F 05/06 21:24
leoturkey:推推!205F 05/06 21:50
argoth:冬粉:菜逼八給我惦惦206F 05/06 21:51
hikaruton:其他人不會做? 某樓確定嗎? 之前就有外電說過安打先生做207F 05/06 22:50
hikaruton:過吧~
MoonHeart:推認真~209F 05/06 23:54
Stelios:好文!我認真的讀完了....210F 05/07 00:44
fentanyl945:推211F 05/07 05:27
fabdawn:推推推推~212F 05/07 09:19
edguy817:大推213F 05/07 12:16
terop:讓我想到棒球大聯盟有一集他們落後八分要追分 吾郎那隊一個214F 05/07 12:34
terop:投手就丟觸身報復 結果隊上終結者自己跑出來換投
BLackDANE:216F 05/07 14:17
QQ5566:不成文不成文不成文不成文不成文不成文不成文不成文不成文217F 05/07 14:39
Price:太推這篇了,果然是球在手上樂趣無窮哪 XD218F 05/07 23:25
Camaderie:推!感謝翻譯219F 05/07 23:41

--
※ 同主題文章:
※ 看板: FW 文章推薦值: 0 目前人氣: 0 累積人氣: 785 
分享網址: 複製 已複製
r)回覆 e)編輯 d)刪除 M)收藏 ^x)轉錄 同主題: =)首篇 [)上篇 ])下篇